Methylene Blue: Part 2 with Dr. Francisco Gonzalez-Lima

Boomer Anderson
September 9, 2020
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Part 2 of the fascinating discussion with Dr. Francisco Gonzalez-Lima on Cytochrome Oxidase and Methylene Blue. Part 1 was an introduction to Cytochrome Oxidase and the history of methylene blue. Part 2 is a deep dive into the benefits and current science behind Methylene Blue.

Who is Dr. Francisco Gonzalez-Lima?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima, Ph.D., is a courtesy professor in the Department of Psychiatry. He also holds the George I. Sanchez Centennial Professorship at The University of Texas at Austin, where he is a professor in the departments of Psychology, Psychiatry, Pharmacology and Toxicology and the Institute for Neuroscience.

Gonzalez-Lima’s teaching experience includes undergraduate, medical, graduate and postdoctoral students, and he currently teaches the core graduate course in Functional Neuroanatomy. Gonzalez-Lima has been the research adviser of 22 Ph.D. students at UT Austin, and his trainees are world leaders in brain research on the relationship between brain energy metabolism, memory and neurobehavioral disorders.

Gonzalez-Lima graduated with honors from Tulane University in New Orleans with a Bachelor of Science in biology and Bachelor of Arts in psychology, and he earned his doctorate in anatomy and neurobiology from the University of Puerto Rico School of Medicine, which honored him with a Distinguished Alumnus Award. He completed postdoctoral training (behavioral neuroscience) at the Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany, as an Alexander von Humboldt research fellow.

Gonzalez-Lima has been a visiting neuroscientist in Germany, England, Canada and Spain and he has delivered more than 120 invited lectures about his brain research around the world. His research has been funded for more than 30 years with federal and private funds, and he has contributed to more than 350 scientific publications in peer-reviewed journals, conference proceedings, chapters and books.

Current research in the Gonzalez-Lima laboratory focuses on the beneficial neurocognitive and emotional effects of noninvasive human brain stimulation in healthy, aging and mentally ill populations. This research primarily uses transcranial infrared laser stimulation and multimodal imaging (EEG, fNIRS and fMRI) in collaboration with colleagues at UT Austin, The University of Texas at Arlington and University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. Gonzalez-Lima supervises and trains students and residents to contribute to these ongoing brain research projects.


[3:45] Methylene Blue's Dose Dependent Curve

[10:25] Poison Control

[18:00] Focus, Alzheimer's, and Protecting Against Cognitive Decline

[24:35] Why Pharmaceutical Grade Matters

[31:28] Leucomethylene Blue and Skin Care

[46:10] Concerns over long term use of Methylene Blue


Methylene Blue Preserves Cytochrome Oxidase Activity and Prevents Neurodegeneration and Memory Impairment in Rats With Chronic Cerebral Hypoperfusion

Energy hypometabolism in posterior cingulate cortex of Alzheimer's patients: superficial laminar cytochrome oxidase associated with disease duration

Hormetic Dose Response

Cytochrome Oxidase in Neuronal Metabolism and Alzheimer’s Disease by Dr. Francisco Gonzalez-Lima

Alzheimer’s Turning Point by Jack De La Torre

Episode Transcript

Boomer Anderson: [00:00:00]Welcome to Decoding Superhuman. This show is a deep dive into obsessions withhealth performance, and how to elevate the human experience. I explore thelatest tools, science and technology with experts in various fields of humanoptimization. This is your host Boomer Anderson. Enjoy the journey.

Welcome back for round two with dr. Francisco Gonzalez Lima.Last week, we talked about cytochrome oxidase in the history of methylene blue.This week, we're getting into dosing, what it can be used for and why you maywant to consider pharmaceutical grade methylene blue. But who is dr. GonzalezLima. He's a courtesy professor in the department of psychiatry at theuniversity of Texas at Austin.

He also holds the George I. Sanchez Centennialprofessorship, where he is a professor in the departments of get thispsychology psychiatry, pharmacology toxicology in the Institute ofneuroscience. I am so grateful just given all of that. I read that he even tookthe time out to speak with me and he was so generous with his time.

And so what is dr. Gonzalez Lima currently researching?They're focusing on the beneficial neurocognitive and emotional effects ofnoninvasive human brain stimulation in healthy aging and mentally illpopulations. Round two, as I mentioned before is such a treat. So let me knowwhat you guys think about this, but also the show notes for this one G L 2 that's F G L 2

well, and the number to enjoy my conversation with dr. FranciscoGonzalez, NEMA fascinating what a chemical compound that is used as a blue dye,but was also originally formulated to help with malaria. Can do. And Iencountered this about a year and a half ago when I was given a beautifulTruckee and allowed it to dissolve in my upper lip.

My tongue turned blue and I felt fantastic. And that was theearly prototype of what then became blue Kennedy paired with nicotine CBD andcaffeine methylene blue acts in somewhat of a synergistic way to give me thisamazing focus which I'm utilizing right now. If you want to try that, or if youjust want to try 16 milligrams of pure methylene blue head on over totroscriptions.Com, I'm involved with a company that's because I love theproduct so much, but use the code boomer, B O O M E R get yourself 10% off.

Let's get back to this conversation with dr. Gonzalez, youknow,

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:03:08]that's where methylene blue, comes through this picture. But why do you say whyyou ask, you may ask why a methylene blue was being used for so many things,because this process of electron cycling is so, you know, as part of redoxchemistry, all kinds of reactions, chemical reactions have to do with thisexchange of electrics.

Boomer Anderson: [00:03:32]A couple of follow on questions to that. Cause this is just fascinating in mymind is just absolutely right now on the low versus high concentration. AndI'll link to your papers in the show notes. Is there an approximate cutoffbetween, you know, what is low versus what is high? And I guess in high doses,you already mentioned what could potentially happen to people.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:03:54]Yes, yes. It is a, what we call is a curve that goes up and then down. So ifyou have a down the concentration of metal and blue, And up you have, forexample, the activity of cytochrome or oxygen consumption, when you start withthe low amounts, you start right. Increasing oxygen consumption. So thegroundwater is okay, DVT.

All these are beneficial effects. Both of you reach aconcentration, that's a pig. And from their own, if you keep increasing, if youkeep increasing the concentration of a methylene blue, the opposite startedhappening. It started going down, in oxygen consumption down in cytochromeoxidase activity.

So sometimes it's referred basic response. No low levels,produce an increase in the response high levels then produce the oppositeeffects there. Pharmacological term is a horrible medic, those risk calls orthe phenomena of hormesis. And, so where's that cutoff. That got off. you canmeasure in different ways.

If you ha, I am beat throw, you can have a homogenates ofthe brain, and then you can measure the molar concentration bear. But if youwant to translate that into, an organism where, you can inject an amount ofmetal in blue. based on the weight of the animals, then the, in our experimentsand we tested many of these, it is between like a half milligram per kilogramof body weight through about four or five milligrams.

Per kilogram of body weight. When you are there, you are inthis, a beneficial part of the curve. The amounts that I gave you are in thetop, in the top is where you have the half milligram to the five milligram.Before that the lower amounts are still beneficial, but they're just not reachingthat big.

And after that five, you start going down, you still may be,be beneficial, but you're going to reach a point where you're going to go belowbaseline. And it will do the almost, it will become a poison. It will become akiller because it is grabbing your oxygen is directly grabbing the oxygen. And,it's not allowing the oxygen to be reduced from water.

And, these, unfortunately there are some people who don'tunderstand. This baby face effect. Did majority of drugs, not just metal andblue have a by facing those responses. Hmm. Which lo those is previews thatopposite of high doses. And this works both ways. What do I mean, if the lowdose. Is, you can have a situation let's, now other phenomenon like radiationfollowed the same or mythic, behavior, let's say cancer, cells that are eitherthe aid that, they killed him.

Well at a high dose, buried radiation kills the cancercells. Or a low dose of irradiation. It promotes formation of cancer cells. Soit works both ways. You can have the beneficial effect being at the high doseor the beneficial effect being at the low dose, depending on what is theintervention in the case of metal and blue is the low dose.

What produces the beneficial effects.

Boomer Anderson: [00:08:03]So. I wonder if just hypothetically here, if let's say somebody had acompromised Kreb cycle, for instance, with mercury poisoning, could methyleneblue then substitute for the electronics or at the end of that, I guess itwould, wouldn't it or independent of what's going on up top in the Krebs cycle.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:08:28]It, it could be happening at many different points.  not only in the grip cycles. The answer isyes. if you don't have a you're interfering in this case with the formation ofthe electron donors and we have pets abusing animals in numerous ways, yes.maybe Len blue becomes, now a replacement.

and, you can also have, for example, inside themitochondria, you can have an innovation in the electron transport chain at anyone of these. They are four, main train frame, stations, they're called,Instamatic complexes or mitochondrial. Complex one, two, three, four, four iscytochrome oxidase.

if you inhibit, do DVD of any of those complex, you cannot,progress, effectively the electron transport. So we have a. We can do this and,and these, chemicals that do that are what we call, metabolic poisons. Forexample, what is the most classic poison historically that you can think of?

the ones that you remember the philosophers where,

Boomer Anderson: [00:09:45]Oh, like rat poison or cyanide or something like that. Right.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:09:49]And I, the, the, the Russian spies Bosley had it in their range. They get upand, very quickly they will die. What does, well, how does it kill? What doesSinai does? Sinai inhibits cipher?

Gramoxone this. When you inhibit cytochrome oxidase morethan about a third of its activity, you die simple as that because you can nolonger use oxygen. Or what about if methylene blue is there at a lowconcentration inside your mitochondria? It can bypass that phenomenon anddirectory donate electrons.

To oxygen, the electrons that couldn't be donated by theinhibited cytochrome oxidase now. So methylene blue is an antidote in emergencyrooms. Methylene blue is listed by the world health organization as one of theessential. Medications in human history that should be available and issupposedly, should be available in every emergency room around the world.

so if you have any kind of metabolic poison, like I gave theexample of Sinai. But you can, have, for example, we using our experience, alot of one is goal, rotting on any heel is a complex one. the same thinghappens, rotten on prevents a flow from complex one. So it allows only,starting from complex two, which is, my, the, the smaller component.

Or you can bypass that by providing electrons through abackground, through the electron transport blue. So you can prevent, the cellsfrom dying, by using this, process and that right now, so the most commonapplication, and they're the only ones that the FDA mentions here in the UnitedStates, unfortunately, Is the, cytochrome oxidase has what it has to grab.

Oxygen will be able to catalyze these reactions. So the waythat attracts oxygen is the same way that hemoglobin inside your blog attractsoxygen. He has a group that is called the Hain group, that in the center has aniron, you know, that  are attractedbecause it oxidizes the iron. So it is like a globe, you know, in a baseball.

Nice that oxygen can be cash. Well, you have a heme group ina hemoglobin. That's where the name comes from. And a hemoglobin has it there.And hemoglobin only carries, carries transports the oxygen inside your blood.Where does it transport them to who is the one who's going to cash that that's cytochromeoxidase.

So that oxygen is going to have to go from hemoglobin tocytochrome oxidase. That transfer and these process of transferring can beinterfered by you blocking the cytochrome oxidase or by you blocking thehemoglobin. So ample. If you have a carbon monoxide, it's a similar to oxygen.It can occupy the same pocket here and interfere with oxygen binding.

You have all the compounds. For example, Nate writes that Ican do similar a whole series of compounds when hemoglobin cannot carry oxygenefficiently, you end up with songs in that that is called a. He more globallynaming? Yes. He's in this condition. What means is the hemoglobin in the blog?Because you have a poison , you're interfering with this carrot.

So what is the only way that you can fix this? The onlyantidote that prevents a, like a kid here in the U S our kids go to thebaseball game. They a little kid, four, five years old. It's several hog dogsfeel with nitrites and it has preserved these needs rights. Get into thecirculation before the ball game is finished.

The little kid starts turning blue. Cyanotic turning bluebecause there is less oxygenated hemoglobin, which is red as opposed todeoxygenated hemoglobin that is blue. they take it to the emergency room. Theonly thing they can get the kid that will, prevent the kids from dying is metaland blue metal and blue prevents the so called, met hemoglobin AMIA.

So it is used as an antidote for any metabolic poison thatis affected the transport. So in that case, you want to get the metal and blueinside the block directly. So you injected intravenously. So again, target. Themethylene blue will have more of  forthat, pocket. And the, it will a will compete with the, with the poison and it willallow the, the hemoglobin to be released a soul.

It is a lifesaver, but is being only used primarily for thisacute, antidote. however, if you give it a low dose, chronically it, fights,toxic compounds that may be interfering, with the transport of oxygen, but alsowith the utilization of oxygen by cytochrome oxidase, inside the mitochondria.

So it has the benefits on the two ends. And, this is whyit's so useful for so many different things, but I can give you a historicalaccount of some of

Boomer Anderson: [00:16:37]the stuff I would, I want to double click on some of the broader benefits ofmethylene blue, because you know, I've used it in the context of focus.

I've also found, and I speculate that this is the antifungalnature of it. It's had a, a unique, positive effect on my gut. but are there.The cognitive benefits is that predominantly through the mechanisms is that wejust discussed with set of Chrome oxidase.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:17:03]Yeah. Yes.  the cognitive benefits, areprimarily for facilitating the energy, supply brain so that you cannot pay moreenergy.

so we have gone, acute experiments, in humans. we firstlearning animals and we show even healthy animals. We could improve, theirmemory performance by low dose, metal and blue. At the beginning, I thought Iwas only going to be able to improve the memory and an animal who has add a, atthe scene memory because of an intervention.

One of these toxic compounds that I told you, like Sinaithat very low dose or roasting on a would produce a learning and memory deficitand metal and blue will, neutralize that, we'll bring the animal back, like inthat, okay. That you mentioned that we recently published. They are, instead ofgiving the animal a thoughts, a compound, I'd try to simulate, one of theprocesses that is the most.

from system process that happens as we grow all. And that isthat we have a chronic, hypoperfusion to the brain that is our circulatorysystem becomes compromised and we perfuse less blood through the brain by doingthat, we provide less oxygen and less nutrients to the brain. So the questionthere.

There is a lot of, epidemiological data and clinical datasuggesting that this a problem with the vascular supply to the brain is relatedto the cognitive decline. The happens as people grow older or also, with themain shift or what is referred to as geriatric, the major, geriatric dementia.includes all of these types of the main show, the happening all age Alzheimer'sdisease.

let me just say, I'll get to the outside the terminologywith Alzheimer's in a moment, but yeah, right now, what I was telling you is,with the metal and blue, You can facilitate a memory when there is adeficiency, but also in a healthy animal. And, in, in the case of this studythat I was, Building up through, we knew there is a lot of evidence now, thatthis basketballer compromise, proceeds and courses a lot of these cognitivedecline, but how come can you demonstrate this?

You cannot produce this in a person experimentally on thecontrol conditions. So we decided to do it in, in animals. Your animals do kindof light gate the care all throughout, or is that the main blind of blog brainis coming from, but you can do it in a way that you allow collateralcirculation so that it's only a partial, decrease, simulating what's happeningas you grow older.

Unfortunately, after 45 years of age, Every a year afterthat, that, you have a slight decrease in the perfusion to your brain. You're acardiovascular assisting. Compensates is called out the regulation by the heartpumping harder. So your blood pressure starts increasing. So you can get moreblood to your brain, but that brawl says reaches a point that it can no longercompensate.

For that, hypoperfusion. And, so you can do that, in theanimal by these ligation. And then we gave them, we maintain this for one monthand, we gave a control group based Sally st. Line, bagel. They entered asolution injected and in the others, the low dose metal and blue, daily,ejected.

And, and sure enough, the animals, can, maintain the memoryfunction. Whereas the other ones, have a memory impairment. And if you look atthe brains after a one month, you can also prevent the neurodegeneration. Thatis happening in the brain, by, the Ronnie low level, methylene blue three.

And that this is not the only time that we done this, interms of facilitate the memory and preventing neurodegeneration. But this wasthe first time that we did it with a hypoperfusion model. In other words, witha one change that we know. Is one of the major factors contributing to thegeriatric or all age, cognitive decline.

And the main set,

Boomer Anderson: [00:22:00]I guess the next question is, is because it sounds like you have somethingbrilliant here and it's a very elegant and candidly probably cheaper solutionin order to deal with one of society's largest problems, which is during what agenerative decline or disease, W, how do we move from, you know, in, in vitrorat studies?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:22:23]Well, We did some of the human work, already, Because we wanted to prove a thatis safe. And, we wanted to prove that it can improve memory in humans. We'vedone that in two studies, already, giving it to humans. We mapped usingfunctional MRI, the effects of methylene blue in the human brain, and whichshown that you can improve a cognitive testing.

It's for what is stopping us, blue as being used for over120 years, it's, a lifesaver in the, the concentrations that we need to use arethe same low concentrations that are used in the emergency room for a secondcute, effect, to prevent, Meant that wallet, vaccines from damaging, or killingsomeone.

so what is the stopping this? Well, follow the money.

Boomer Anderson: [00:23:21]Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You can't patent something that's beenaround for over a hundred years.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:23:27]No pharmaceutical company. And I had tried, when I first started doing thiswork, there was a company in the us, that was making a maple in blue and it wasin pill form.

There were appeals of 65 milligrams, which would have beingequivalent to, in a 65. Kilogram personally would have being equivalent to onemilligram per kilogram, which would have been fine. They were actually widelyused in the U S many years ago, for a different purpose. And, I can alsoexplain that all the purpose it was because related to the other point that youbrought in, but let me explain that and then go back to the issue of thepharmaceutical, in the U S that compound a company's no longer around, what'scalled a yearling yearling blue.

It's just a name for a, they gave to metal and Bluefields,and, You rolling stones, it sounds like you are in your urinary bladder. Thereason for it is that the way your body, your body doesn't break down Maitlandin blue, to any significant extent. So it is essentially all the metal and bluethat you ingest.

is removed from the circulation through the kidneys, egosinto the bladder, the urinary bladder. And you urinate that back out in about12 hours, a half of the methylene blue that you consume with this low level.those is. It's a sick excrete out you pee. So that's why, when you pee, afteryou take methylene blue, you pee blue or blemish.

It depends. It depends. It could be green. Your urine was ajello. Then the blue and the jello makes it green. If your urine was clear,then it's more bluish. so a whole range of, it, this color, the urine, the, sowhat does this mean? It means that, has, after you take a dose of this. Overtime.

Let's say this first 12 hours where half of it gets intoyour bladder. So the bladder gets a high concentration. All of that, that issort of being distributed through your body, gets concentrated in your bladder.And what happens when methylene blue is a high concentration is almost theopposite of the low concentration.

It becomes a killer. It becomes a pro oxidant. So if youhave microbes in your bladder, like in an urinary tract infection, then itkills the microbes. So usually in blue was used. Has a treatment of choice forurinary tract infections. You know, like older people, especially older womenhave recurrent urinary tract infections because, they don't, they, allow theurine to remain in the bladder for too long because of the changes that happenin the, your ability to, Urinate, over time as you grow older soul and theantibiotics became popular.

Then these, treatment, was changed and doctors were not, nolonger taught about metal and blue and they prescribed antibiotics or urinarytract infections. And then, people old, especially older people. Worked forthem one month, taking antibiotics to relieve that, of course, having older,the militating effects by, damaging your intestinal flora, for example, withantibiotics, I know, unfortunately it will be free for a couple of months orso, but if they are urine counseling there for too long, they, they getreinfected with their own.

We did all a bacterial flora. so this, this is a bro Ramthat already has a solution, but that company, closed down, it couldn't competewith the antibiotics. The physicians wouldn't prescribe it, even though it wasa better treatment and it didn't produce these other side effects. And also foranother, the reason that I got to get to that is more sinister and, Hmm.

Now that, all of these information that we have been workingfor, many years, about methylene blue was being out. all the people have beentrying to use these. There was a group, from the UK, the found that, methyleneblue, in vitro, could prevent the phosphorylation of tau and, they created acompany that has a part of their name with the same word.

And I'm going, gonna mention the name, and, This company isbeing promoted as an anti tau, treatment using metal and blue. Well, whathappened? they realized they couldn't, patent the metal and blue. So they comeup with that,

well, derivative, which is not really a deliver. They justhad a reduc reduce form.

Of maple and blue when methylene blue is reduced, it'scalled local Medelen blue local means transparent, or I see

Boomer Anderson: [00:29:04]it in skincare sometimes.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:29:05]Right?

Boomer Anderson: [00:29:07]You see that with skincare sometimes,

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:29:08]right? Well, the local metal and blue, well, let me explain. That's a differentone. The local metal and blue means is reduced, is transparent.

however, that's the form whenever metal and blue gets intoyour body. It can not go across the cell membrane unless it's reduced intolocal metal and blue. So your body, all those that naturally. but anyway, thatcompany make the local metal and blue, and they have been doing clinical trialswith Alzheimer's patients.

And, unfortunately, because they believe. In Beatrice, themore metal in blue, you have the, the more you interfere with, the style offormulation, then they believe the more you have the better. and then thosepending curves

Boomer Anderson: [00:29:59]discussed there.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:30:01]Yeah. They, they, and believe me, I know they know about my work.

And, but they don't want, because they already attendedthese local methylene. Blue has having a different mechanism of action thanwhat I've been talking about here. So of course, when they started doing these,so with the higher doses, they didn't help, it began counterproductive. So someof their experiments, they gave very small amounts of methylene blue.

And it turns out that the people that then meant that peoplewho were benefiting were the ones getting the very low, those that they wereusing as a control. just to, just to get the urine blue. We're giving them thissmall amount and the ones that are giving the doses that in B through, at themore, effect in, interfering with the tau phosphorylation, they were notbenefiting, they were worse off.

and, so that company is being, coming up with all kinds ofways to try to explain these, are, Frankly, have no scientific basis, and, Andunfortunately also in some of the other studies, they have people withAlzheimer's that were being treated with the Estrace inhibitors we Memantine,and then they added to that combination.

They added the methylene blue and these, those didn't work,the, these older compounds, have, actually, Better remain full effects, whengiven chronically and, so they, you couldn't demonstrate any benefit, on thedose conditions. And however, it is almost impossible, to convince, aneurologist, to take.

All of these medications, people with dementia. So itbecomes nearly impossible to do a trial with only Mechelen, nowadays, small.This is one of the issues. So. But what happens then? This is the sinister partof it. a lot of pharmaceutical companies, they didn't want metal and blue tocoming into the picture because they couldn't patent it.

They couldn't make money from it. it's very inexpensive tosensitize. It used to be widely available and not anymore. Why not anymore?Because they, influence the FDA, to say, wait a minute, why you're notregulating metal numbers, metal and blue is a grandfather's draw. In otherwords, being around for decades before the FDA was created.

So drugs that were safe and use for decades before the FDA,the FDA grandfather. So, they put a lot of pressure and now anybody who wantsto do anything with metal and blue, the FDA requires, these investigational newdrug applications and, makes it very difficult. And so all the studies that we,they, we humans, we had to obtain for each one of them.

do the process again. an investigational new drugapplication demonstrating, the safety and, they're demonstrating the advantagesof it. That seems ridiculous.

Boomer Anderson: [00:33:26]Just in terms of the amount of loopholes and regulations that you have to gothrough in order to make this happen. When. In fact it's been around, as yousay decades before the FDA, it was even a thing.

I mentioned this in the first episode, but we never reallygot around to speaking about low level laser therapy, dr. Francisco GonzalezLima. And I spent two hours talking about methylene blue, but he's also donesome fascinating research in that field. And one of my favorite devices for lowlevel laser therapy is the Vielight.

I have the neuro alpha and it helps enhance things likemeditation for me can sleep. And it acts on something called cytochromeoxidase. We had dr. Lou Lim on the show before, and you can refer to thatpodcast to get more information on the device, but if you want yours head onover to That's V I E L I G HT.

And use the code boomer. And you're going to get yourself10% off your device. Let's get back to my conversation with dr. Gonzalez.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:34:32]It's being around, over 120 years, it used to be available over the counter.and this is salting that I need to explain, for your viewers, metal and blue.Can have different degrees.


Boomer Anderson: [00:34:47]Let's go into that. Cause that's, that's something that's very important. Sopeople just don't go and buy the aquarium stuff.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:34:53]Yes. in fact, like I told you with the high concentration, he has an antisepticactivity. Like I was playing in the case of the bladder, the urinary also is used, in high concentrations, actually taking up, orally with peoplethat have, parasites, especially the malaria parasites right now, the,Especially the Germans are the ones giving, usually children's thousands ofchildren, in Africa with malaria and all their intestinal and, and, and theyalso have all kinds of intestinal parasites. They're given, methylene blue andconcentrations from seven to 10 milligrams per kilo grams oraly, and, and theyact as an antiseptic and they weakened one of the enzymes of the malariaparasites called plasmodium falciparum.

And, And it's being used for that purpose. and, but they,they manufactured their own metal and blue, and, provided a free, you know,has, in campaigns as anti-malaria campaigns. just, just give it acutely forseveral days, usually three to four days. but, That is pharmaceutical grademeddling blue, which is about 99% purity or, or more, it doesn't have some ofthe contaminants that are, present.

When you think that that is chemicals. Some other compoundsare also formed in a smaller amount, including mercury that you mentioned, And,but for industrial purposes, there is, more inexpensive way to manufacturemetal and blue, that, has, still. About 95% purity. And, so right now there arethree grades, the pharmaceutical grade that is about 99% loss purity.

that is one that you get injected in the emergency rooms forhas an antidote. then you have the one that is called the chemical grade,Maitland blue. It will be 95% 96, 97. present. This is the one that you can buyfrom. It's called chemical. Great to use in the chemistry lab for making astains, reactions.

it's sold by chemical company and then, lower, quality interms of purity. The industrial type, you know, it could be 90% or less,beauty, that has a lot of contaminants, but it's good enough to die, close ordies. Some, all the compounds, some other, materials,

Boomer Anderson: [00:37:40]but the danger there is obviously the fillers.

Right. And so.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:37:45]Yes, the, the danger is these older compounds are formed when you sent it tiesmetal and blue, and you don't have a purified form or usually either thechemical grade or the dozer grades are the ones available. For example, in thepet stores, that you use or fish eat fish, have any Brolin, actually anyBrogan.

Any ectoparasites that is pair size or around their surfaceor microbes microorganisms are trying to eat them up liters. then you pur,metal and blew into the water. and in that it's a high, relatively highconcentration, but of course it's to be that concentration is going to behigher. Do that external borrow the fish, provide this antiseptic function.

And the one, the amount of the fish consumed through, theyjust consumed. Some of the water is not enough to be harmful, so it's morebeneficial. So every pet store. in the, in the world, has methylene bluebottles. However, they are either chemical grade or industrial rate and youdon't know, they will.

They won't tell you what, concentration level of purity youhave. So you have to buy methylene blue from a source that is pharmaceuticalgrade, and there are two standards. one is called the USP or United Statespharmacopeia standard. That's the hygienist one. In other words, they requiremore purity, less concentration or certain, of these contaminants.

And then the other standard is the European, pharmaceuticalstandard. And it is also a good quality. It just that they, allow slightly moreconcentrations of certain, contaminants. And, for example, the ones that theGermans used when they go, through Africa and these, anti malaria campaigns,is, is the European one.

And, in the us and Canada, they use a USP. A USP is a,pharmaceutical grade in the U S some companies in Europe, because they want tosell to the us and Canada. They manufactured a USP grade, methylene blue aswell, even though they are European companies. There's one in France. Thatactually came up with a new way of sensitizing methylene blue that is virtuallyfree of contaminants is the most, form available.

And they were able to pattern the methods for the synthesis.So that means they're asked a much more money. Than what you can get throughthe classic, pharmaceutical

Boomer Anderson: [00:40:54]pharmaceutical grade suffice to say is, is good enough to

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:40:58]do it is safe. and is, given, like I say, is injected, there are people, whohave, deficits, for example, inside the inside the Gramoxone oxidase that Itold you, That are born with this, deficit.

that is one disease is a school, Leber's syndrome. the, thefull name is soup, acute necrotizing, local neighborhood opposition.

Boomer Anderson: [00:41:27]Wow.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:41:29]Well, yeah, that one means a cytochrome oxidase is not fully functional andsold their brain starts to degenerate thing. and, they take maybe Elon blue alltheir life, to be able to, keep functioning.

so, it's not only being used, acutely, has an antidote, butin this particular, this, unfortunately that's a rare, fortunately is a rarecondition. But they can take it every day, for the lifespan in order to, inorder to be able to use oxygen.

Boomer Anderson: [00:42:02]So that answers my question over longterm use concerns.

I guess there's no longterm use concerns that we know of.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:42:11]No, there is, right now in the U S in particular, there's a new class of drugs.It became at some point, the most prescribed drugs in the U S and this is. Theantidepressants that are called the SSRI, this select the serotonin uptake.yeah, you're taking SSR eyes canister in the, yeah, with metal and blue becausemetal and blue actually has.

Health and antidepressant is a mile, but it's been demonstratedin clinical research, a mile antidepressant.

Boomer Anderson: [00:42:53]This is the MAOI properties, or is that something else?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:42:57]Yes, it is primarily, but not exclusively because part of our depressioninvolves, fatigue, low energy. so maybe on blue fighters out.

Are we improving energy consumption, but, also metal andblue at a low dose is, It's inherited some of the action of that enzyme that iscalled, Mao mono, a bean oxidates. so monoamine oxidase inhibitors are aclassic class of antidepressant medications. So, for example, st John's words,heard.

that has antidepressant properties is a Mao inhibitor. sohello. The FDA has a warning not to use metal and blue together with, it's asurprise. However, the paroling is not the metal and blue, the problems aren'tthere. Okay. Maybe Dillon blue by itself is completely safe. And let me explainthat FDA warning, all medications have some kind of FDA warning, and, theydidn't have one for methylene blue before.

But there is a situation where metal and blue is used athigh concentrations and he's doing surgery. In the neck or removing theparathyroid. These are small glands next to the thyroids that are embedded inthe fats, super Daniels fan inside the neck. But it's very difficult to bevisualize by the surgeons.

So with the surgeons, through the neck, they want to seewhere the parathyroid is. Are. To remove them. They prefer methylene blue intothe wound and, the most active tissue there between the fat and the gland isthe gland. So the gland, then they the tissue and they see that the one that issustained more is the gland tissue, and then they can remove it.

And then they repeat these several times until they. No,they remove all of it. So this is a new control. Do so methylene blue, becausenow that methylene blue is yeah. The circulation, in an open wound. And theyhad never had this bro, a problem with this technique, actually, they'd beendoing that technique since the 1970s.

so it's however, when people were, they were thinking thisSSRI is where a nested dies. The brain function was depressed. Now were thengiven these, Large concentrations of men until I'm blue. Then when they wererecovering, they found increases in serotonin, leading to serotonin syndrome inseveral of these cases.

And yeah, these led to the warning. However, it is neverbeing seen. If you don't have those three conditions and a group of, Surgeonspharmacologists in the Mayo clinic, Rhoda rebuttal through the FDA saying thisis not right. Right. You are warning. Genital four is this arise when it's onlyon the, this specific foundations to happen and they send evidence.

That in the majority of cases, even on the dose conditions,it doesn't lead to any adverse effect. So that's the only negative side effectsyou can check out. There are some people that have some in semantic deficits.That had to do with a urine, being able to excrete compounds through urine, youknow, for in that case, then you cannot excrete your metal and blue properly.

So your levels can build up inside your blood. So they're inthat rare situation, then you can have a. for all rooms. So if you have urinarytract, urinary, the diseases, that doesn't allow you to excrete the metal andblue, the metal and blue, well built up in your blog. so that's, essentially,we had to worry about all of this when we did the.

Human trials to make sure that people didn't have theseissues.

Boomer Anderson: [00:47:40]Dr. Gonzalez, Lima. I just looked at the time. Wow. It's flown by and I didn'teven get to the second topic that I want to ask you about. So I'd like toinvite you back for a round two at some point. but I do have a final few rapidfire questions if it's okay with you to just round off our conversation.

first question. What's your top trick for enhancing focus?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:48:04]What is my one

Boomer Anderson: [00:48:06]top trick for enhancing focus?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:48:10]Well, I don't, I don't do tricks like magicians, even though, metal and blue iscalled the magic bullet. I don't think it's magical, but, definitely, metal andblue is preferred. Because, some of the other ways to increase, brainfunctions, for example, our base, on two things, boasting energy, availability,or a narrow transformation, they, in my view, the weakest ones of these arenarrative transformation because these are very transient, changes and theyproduce all kinds of other side effects.

they, there is no. Nailed a transmitter that is specific,to, for example, calling the function, they serve many different cellularfunctions, so, same study, improve energy, and energy available. Use of oxygen.of course everybody knows that aerobic exercise a will reduce, improvecognitive function.

Why the main reason that I exercise accomplish disease. Isnumber one, it operates cytochrome oxidase, not only in your muscles, but inyour brain. And it increases, this is your cardiovascular health, so you can,get more blood flow. and we actually, Seeing that he's very similar, the way exercisework.

So by facilitating mitochondrial respiration. So, there areother compounds that you may have probably hear about, acid L-carnitine. Theseare compounds that, is involved in mitochondrial energy production. So it canserve as a precursor there, so it can facilitate adding more sauce, fate, butagain, the limiting factor, even if you have enough, so straight, if you'rebreathing in oxygen is always cytochrome oxidase.

So it doesn't allow you to use that. And if you cannot,provide more energy brain function is tightly coupled with energy use. So themore you are working your brain, the more energy, is like, the brain isplugging through the wall in an electrical supply. You unplug it and it stopsworking. You don't provide oxygen.

Spells working and you die pass out and die. but if you'reworking more, your or electricity, you're drawing more energy. So. I will say,I prefer to recommend people, the aisle B fitness and, Saul straights, like asa deal L-carnitine, that facilitates, creation of, natural Electrum donors and,Okay.

And what we didn't talk about here, photo biomodulation or

Boomer Anderson: [00:51:08]dr. Gonzales, Lima, I'm going to have to have you back because that is onetopic I would love to drill down more. I know we don't have enough time to doit.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:51:16]Yes. That will be another way to facilitate the same mechanism.

Boomer Anderson: [00:51:21]So, what excites you most about what's going on in the health world right now?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:51:28]Well, unfortunately for everyone, we're now, being under attack by thispandemic, suffering from COVID-19. so the crisis, thrown out Health's point ofview happens, when you develop no money, And, so we need to find ways toprevent the formation of the pneumonia. it, even if we are exposed to thevirus, which is likely, you know, most people are going to be exposed and aregoing to get the virus.

So they, my concern would be, how can we prevent thepneumonia? I don't see vaccination is the way to go. this is something. Thatthis virus transforms itself so quickly in a rate similar to the call. Biros islike, we don't have a backseat for the common call. We're not going to have aneffective vaccine or, the SARS, virus that produces COVID-19, it will.

Be more of a psychological, safety blanket, because, thevirus is going to change. So I seen the talk should be on preventing thepneumonia, having a cell protective, and it just happens. And blue may be oneagent, that could do this in the long. There are, dozens. Of his studies,including the majority human studies showing that, it methylene blue can becytoprotective for the same reasons that I told you, preventing the oxidativestress and damage and facilitating energy utilization by all the tissues, suchas the long.

And, in, in animal experiments in one day, unfortunatelyit's only one, really well detailed animal study where they expand inducedpneumonia and they gave methylene blue in the same yeah. Way that I justexplained here. And they can't prevent the pneumonia and the lung damage, andthey show you the tissues from the animals and all the measurements of, and,but it hasn't gone beyond that.

So I, which, they will be. some groups interested in doingthis. Unfortunately again, pharmaceutical companies are not going to beinterested because they won't be able to patent, this intervention. They willbe able to bat than any vaccine. And for example, the FDA has, I have a verylow threshold of effectiveness to approving it.

Vaccine right now is 50%. So it's almost by chance. It's 50%effective in people in infected, to prevent, or reduce severity of the disease,with the vaccine, it could almost be

Boomer Anderson: [00:54:28]placebo, right? Like that could almost be a placebo effect in itself.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:54:34]It's unfortunate, but that's a, that's going to be the first time around themain concern is that it's not that it's only 50% effective, but it's not thatit doesn't cause any harm because some of these will pose harm.

Unfortunately, for all things in our body, just like the,the microorganisms chairs commonalities. would you develop any antibody?Against any broad thing or part of a broad thing, there is going to be somecross-reactivity. There is no such thing as a bad scene that is completely, isspecific and has no grocery activity.

Boomer Anderson: [00:55:20]Yeah.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:55:22]So the, the important thing would be to avoid adverse effects. So I'm hopingthat sounds like metal and blue will attract some older governments, that, hemay have to be done by, nonprofit organizations or government organizations,right now, They could easily do it when the patients are coming in, they haveit in every emergency room. As soon as they go into the emergency room, theycan be put up, in metal and blue. and, it will facilitate oxygenation. even ifthe laws are compromised.

Boomer Anderson: [00:56:01]Dr. Gonzalez, Lima, perhaps more of a personal question.

What book has more, most significantly impacted your life?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:56:11]Can you repeat the question

Boomer Anderson: [00:56:13]again? Sure. what book has most significantly impacted your life?

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:56:19]Yes. I have to say, based on these topics, that. It is a book written by dr.Jack, they left already. Okay. And, this book is about Alzheimer's disease and,talks about a new paradigm, how these should be view.

I don't recall exactly right now, the name of the book.

Boomer Anderson: [00:56:47]I can find it and put it in the show.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:56:49]Yeah, it's a book about the vascular hypotheses. it's it's about prevention ofAlzheimer's disease. Uncle seeing on the basketballer and hypotheses and, waysthat we can do to improve our IOB counts, through the cardiovascular system,but also in other ways that, and it shows all the evidence there of why theamyloid or the tau are not, what we should be focusing on and how we shouldfocus on basketballer health.

And, Other mechanisms that facilitate mitochondriarespiration, including, what we have been talking about today. And, so, so Ithink it's a, Alzheimer's a turning point, It's a, is, is a new way I sent thiswill have a big impact on society and, it needs to be, used as an antidote forall of the misinformation that has been going on for so long.

Now, a bottle of Alzheimer's disease.

Boomer Anderson: [00:57:55]Thank you, dr. Gonzalez, Lima, where can people find out more about

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:58:00]you? I seen the best way is, doing a Google search. I have a lot of my workand, so, German, system that is called research gate research Gates, has over,the profiles and. Papers of more than 17, mainly on, researchers in the world,is freely available.

You can just, you only need to register. for it. And, theyis not a commercial type of, enterprise. So you search my name, in researchgate and, innovation profile, Bayer, a very brief profile. You have access tomany of my publications, some of them are copied, right? That, and thepublishing companies do not allow you to have them freely available, but manyof them are already open access.

Boomer Anderson: [00:58:56]This has been such a pleasure for me. And like I said, at the beginning, I'vewanted to talk to you for a very, very long time. And this conversation isincredible. We only got to cover methylene blue, but I'm so glad that we wentin such detail. So thank you so much for giving so much of your time today totalk about this topic.

I really appreciate you.

Francisco Gonzalez-Lima: [00:59:17]Thank you very much, boomer. I really appreciate it.

Boomer Anderson: [00:59:21]And to everyone listening out there, you can check this one out on YouTube orevery other podcast channel, but it's been an amazing time. I hope you enjoyedit. Wow. I'm eternally grateful for the time that dr. Gonzalez Lima gave to mein this interview, we spoke for over two hours.

And when we stopped recording the conversation continued.And so he's very, very generous with his time. And I love what he's doing interms of research. If you enjoyed this episode, you head on over to Applepodcast and leave a five star review, but also share it with a friend check,talk, Instagram, wherever.

You speak on social media. It's really, really beneficial tothe show. The show notes for this one are at And Iappreciate your superhumans have an absolutely Epic day.


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